Notes

1/ Avignon: it has a bridge! And a song about the bridge: “Sur le pont d’Avignon.” The bridge is medieval; the song dates from the fifteenth century: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sur_le_Pont_d%27Avignon

2/ Boniface VIII (Pope 24 December 1294–11 October 1303). He was…something. Definitely check out Dante’s thoughts!

3/ Dr. Jesse: we can all recognize that in the past there have been different times when a third party has interfered in an election…

Em: …

Em: oh my god, we recorded this in April 2024. She was talking about the 2000 election. [A lot has happened in a year. Now it could also be the NYC mayoral race!–Jesse]

4/ The episode on Catherine of Siena is number 6.

Jesse and I went to Siena at one point! I don’t remember if we saw her head. I’m guessing we did? We also saw a horse race, which means we were there on August 16, 2003? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palio_di_Siena [That was a great Palio! There were many, many false starts, and then someone fell (or was pushed/tripped) off their horse during the race, and the neighborhood whose rider fell (or was sabotaged) definitely thought he was sabotaged, and they all stormed the track toward the neighborhood they thought pushed him, and we were standing in between the two groups. –Jesse]

5/ Episode Summary!

Avignon Papacy:

Seven popes resided at Avignon instead of Rome

Pope Clement V: 1305–1314 (curia moved to Avignon, 9 March 1309)

Pope John XXII: 1316–1334

Pope Benedict XII: 1334–1342

Pope Clement VI: 1342–1352

Pope Innocent VI: 1352–1362

Pope Urban V: 1362–1370 (in Rome 1367–1370; returned to Avignon 1370)

Pope Gregory XI: 1370–1378 (left Avignon to return to Rome on 13 September 1376, returned in January 1377)

WESTERN SCHISM:

ROME

AVIGNON

PISA

Urban VI (1378–1389)

Antipope Clement VII (1378–1394)

Boniface IX (1389–1404)

Antipope Benedict XIII (1394–1423)

Pope Innocent VII (1404–1406)

Pope Gregory XII* (1406–1415)

*Voluntarily resigns to end schism

Antipope Alexander V (1409–1410)

Antipope John XXIII* (1410–1415)

*Submitted to Martin V in Florence in 1418 and died shortly thereafter. The Medici built him a huge tomb.

Pope Martin V (1417–1431)

Synopsis

When did the conclave system get started and why? Following on the heels (uh, vaguely) of our emergency popecast, Em and Dr. Jesse discuss history of papal elections and how the Church got to where it is.

Notes

Saints and Sinners: A History of the Popes, by Eamon Duffy. 4th ed. Yale University Press, 2015.

1/ We recorded this in February 2024; Benedict died on the 31st of December, 2022. He was 95. JPII lived to 84 (d. 2005) and Francis was 88. [Benedict XVI was the former head of the Dicastery or Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the formerly known as the Congregation of the Inquisition. –Jesse]

Celestine V (c.1210/15–1296; pope July 5–December 13 1294)

Gregory XII (c1327–1417; pope 1406–1415, resigns to end schism)

Pope John XXIII (1881–1963, pope 1958–1963) called the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965).

Pisan Antipope John XXIII (d.1419; pope 1410–1415)

2/ I’m sure some of this background on the various popes and especially Francis is a repeat from last episode. If you took good notes and don’t need a reminder, I’m sorry.

3/ “Eventually they get found liable for their sayings.” I have no idea what politician that was a dig at. I’m pretty sure that the “mayors of major cities who get more say than the governor” is probably a reference to the mayor of NYC vs the NY governor?

4/ For more on the Ottonian Dynasty!

5/ You can actually still become a married male priest in the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church by: first becoming a pastor in another denomination, getting married there (and a certain amount of time elapsing), and then converting to Catholicism and applying to become a priest. (This requires your wife’s consent, apparently. In case you were wondering if women ever got asked to consent to anything in Christianity. There is one thing.)

You can also become a priest if you’re a widower.

6/ Gregory VII (c1015–1085; pope 1073–1085)

Peter Damian (c1007–1072)

Lateran Council of 769

7/ Pope Paul I (pope 757–767)

Antipope Constantine II (pope 767–769)

Antipope Philip (pope only one day, July 31, 768)

Pope Stephen III (c720–772; pope 768–772)

Pope Adrian I (pope 772–795)

8/ Stephen IX (c1020–1058; pope 1057–1058)

Antipope Benedict X (pope 1058–1059)

Pope Nicholas II (c. 990/95–1061; pope 1058/9–1061)